is Xfce getting too bloated ?

[Erik Harrison]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:34:48 -0400, purslow at sympatico.ca
<purslow at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> 041014 Benedikt Meurer wrote:
> >> 2) Please take a moment and think about what you are going to write,
> >> _BEFORE_ you send the next mail to this mailinglist! Its getting
> >> ridiculous!
> > Shame on me. I'm sorry for this rant, I didn't ment to hurt you.
> > Benedikt
> 
> your apology is accepted, but i have to say it was needed
> &  2 - 3  others don't seem able to accept criticism without getting angry.
> 
> i've put in some time recently installing 4.2 ,
> getting it set up properly & trying things out
> and i've tried to report apparent bugs or weaknesses in a sober manner.
> that, surely, is the purpose of a beta release.
> i can only describe some of the responses as bordering on hysterical.
> 
> i have  2  general misgivings about the direction Xfce seems to be taking.
> first, some developers seem -- from the above -- to be too in-grown
> & losing sight of the real aim, which is to provide something people can use.

I humbly disagree. I've been using Xfce since before 4.0 development
kicked off, and Joe Klemmer remembers when Xfce used XForms instead of
GTK. Usablity and performance have never been anything but central.

> second & much more important, the project seems to be going off at tangents,
> adding plug-ins, pop-ups, goodies, bells, whistles & gew-gaws,

Again, I think you are incorrect. Xfce is a modern desktop
environment. If all that was wanted was a panel and a window manager
running as fast as possible, Xfce would still run against Gtk 1.x.

> while neglecting such basic needs as a configurable installer
> -- even omitting a simple README with the standard source distribution --
> & proper documentation for all the rapidly accumulating pieces.

As a user with no time to write them myself, I appreciate the offer of
your time to write the documentation. Make sure you alert the
translators who are busy making sure those docs are available in their
language.

> recent messages have covered a compositor & C++ bindings,
> whose purpose & relevance i might understand if they were explained.

The short answer:

Users want a compositor. I don't say user in the derogatory way of
some people, I mean people like myself, and Olivier. When the
developer of an app wants a feature, you usually see that feature.
Having the compositor live outside the window manager is pretty much a
bad idea, so it was either no compositor for Xfce (as it would be
poorly provided by a third party app) or one in the windowmanager.

If you are concerned about bloat, it can be left out during
compilation. It's not compiled by default.

As for C++ bindings: people like to develop in C++. A small but
respectable group of critics claim that GTK's major failing is that
it's written in C. When a new developer steps into a free software
project with a large body of existing code that fills a much needed
niche, and does so in a way which at first glance seems to be in
keeping with your projects philosophy (ie Useful and Lightweight) then
you don't kick him and his code to the curb. You say "thank you" and
"I like it let's give it a shot" which is what Olivier did.

> 
> i fully appreciate & am grateful for your work in creating 4.2
> -- i have said that more than once before -- ,
> but you are not going to go on being successful,
> if you don't listen to opinions & comment from outside your group.

Everyone on this list has been nothing but kind and thoughtful when
listening to me in the past. In fact, I haven't been thankful enough
to them in the past. Let's rectify that.

Thanks guys! You're the reason I'm not running Windows, and that makes
me very very very happy.

-Erik
> 
> enough, retort if you wish: i don't intend to say any more.
> we all have other things to do today & every other day.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ========================,,============================================
> SUPPORT     ___________//___,  Philip Webb : purslow at chass.utoronto.ca
> ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban & Community Studies
> TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'  University of Toronto
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-- 
-Erik