Aw: Re: New panel in trunk

[timystery at arcor.de]

----- Original Nachricht ----
Von:     Jasper Huijsmans <jasper at xfce.org>
An:      XFCE4 development list <xfce4-dev at xfce.org>
Datum:   09.10.2005 12:23
Betreff: Re: New panel in trunk

> Fabian Nowak schreef:
> > hi jasper!
> > 
> > i totally dislike the new panel at the moment - though i'm already
> developping for it.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to write this up. This is the feed-back I need.
> 
> There's a couple of different things here, the panel framework, the 
> specific implementation of plugins or panel features and issues outside 
> the panels control. Implementations are easy to change, fundamental 
> framework issues are not.
> 
> > 
> > 1. menus on starters
> >    a. no "remove entry" on rightclicks in menus
> >    b. no "add new entry" on rightclick on arrow-button
> 
> It's more work adding/removing one item, but less when changing more 
> than one item.

sure, but an entry "add menu entry here" popping up a window for one new entry is what my mouse-brain-hand-system expects. same goes for the "remove me" menu entry. of course, it would be somehow duplicate, but if we see the all-in-one dialog as the new benefit and the other ones as leftovers from the new panel, I think it is quite tenable.

> 
> >    c. the items in the starter menus are shown in the opposite order of
> >       the list where you edit them. i suggest adding a separtor line 
> >       into the menu editor after the first item or to even additinally 
> >       place it at the bottom.
> 
> Yeah, that would be nice.
;-)
> 
> > 
> > 2. panel settings
> >    a. configuring the size takes much more time than before,
> >       i suggest using an editable combobox with 22, 32, 48, 64 pixels or
> >       even better the old one and an otional entry "specify own size" 
> >       which would set a spin_box sensitive
> 
> Yeah, I'm not entirely happy with this myself. This seems like a good 
> suggestion.
ok.
> 
> > 
> > 3. moving items
> >    a. should work after rightclick menu option "move item"
> 
> How? Popping up a dialog with a position spin box or something?
nope, introducing the mode of the panel where you can drag items around like when managing items. just a duplicate nice-to-have for unused, newcomers, conservatives like me, ...
> 
> >    b. ... crashes the panel sometimes
> 
> Well, this is of course a bug, and should simply be fixed. A backtrace 
> of the crash would be very much appreciated.
yes, tell me how or where to find a small, comprehensive tutorial.
> 
> >    c. doesn't work with separator items sometimes, it just did ...
> 
> The drag and drop seems to be a bit off sometimes. That has to be fixed. 
> If only I could find the cause...
> 
> > 
> > 4. removing items
> >    a. popups a dialog which i really did NOT expect, since plugins are 
> >       so small that even if you accidently removed them, it is not a
> >       matter of time to re-add them; but it is a matter of time to 
> >       read this "really remove" dialog when you remove items.
> 
> Yeah, I tend to agree. People complained when I didn't have that, though...
people do always complain. but i never complained not having it - those who complained earlier will complain later on.
but perhaps, with the new menu structure, it is tenable, as the options can be more distinguished and it therfore is more unlikely to choose the wrong men uentry. so I'd say, keep it at first.
> 
> > 
> > 5. adding items
> >    a. ... should really be possible with a button "add to panel" which 
> >       puts the item as last element into the panel.
> 
> This needs a good way to select the panel to add an item to, though. 
> That's why I left it out.
nope. add it as last item to the panel on which the menu  entry was chosen - getting the panel is just what you already do in all the other menu entry callback handlers.

> 
> >    b. the options dialog does no longer popup when items are added.
> >       very annoying, 'cause first-time-xfce users will not know that 
> >       they can for ex. have the pager use two rows.
> 
> Yeah, I think I'll add that again.
thanks.

> 
> >    c. the panel just crashed after chaging from "terminal" icon to own
> >       icon.
> >       actually, it does most of the time when trying this in either  
> >       starter.
> 
> Please, get me a backtrace of the crash, this should be fixed.
> 
> >    d. there is no dnd-possibility onto the icon-button in starter dialog
> >       as it was in 4.2.
> 
> Oh, right. Well, that needs to be added then.
ok.
> 
> >    e. without tabbing thru the starter config (due to the icon list in 
> >       the middle of the order when tabbing thru the fields, i got to 
> >       mouse click), many options are not kept or used from their entry 
> >       fields. 
> 
> Yeah, it seems this isn't always working properly. I did change some 
> things, so this may work now.
seems to work in the newest revision from svn

> 
> >    f. what about a separator line?
> 
> Where?
button in between the "move down" and "add new item" buttons to add a separator to the panel. I think it might be pretty cool to have the option to sort your menus alittle  bit.
> 
> > 
> > 6. translations are quite old and should start to become reviewed...
> >    a. i attached de.po.gz for trunk (moritz already said it was ok to 
> >       help out)
> 
> Nothing to like about this, is there? It's a complete rewrite, so 
> translations need to be updated. Big deal.
yope, nyes, however. more translators should soon start translating. Esperanto is already translated apart from German, but the others are not - normal users usually love having applications use their language.
so it'S perhaps just my complicated way to say "make sure, translations are available for most langauges before releasing".
> 
> > 
> > 7. pager
> >    a. i just found that the pager is disabled because - like in gnome - 
> >       it is  used in the old taskbar - uh, that's not xfce'ish i think.
> 
> Hehe, that was not intentional. It was for testing purposes only and has 
> been fixed.
ok.
> 
> >    b. adding it made my panel just crash.
> 
> Please, if you experience crashes, try to get a backtrace with gdb. It's 
> very hard for me to fix things otherwise.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > the clock and separator are no more transparent after having moved any
> > item in the panel. reloading the theme makes them transparent again.
> 
> This is a compositor / X Composite issues, nothing the panel can do 
> about it.
nope. my sis onboard is not the one i'd use with compositor extensions enabled...
it's perhaps a gtk bug, but in striped-backghround themes like smokey-blue, after having the panel be grayed in the management mode, the background of elements like separator, clock etc. stays gray, doesn't become white-striped again. icons work though.
> 
> > i'd also like to change the fontsize of the analog clock display - at
> > least as far as i allowed in the sensors plugin by having 5 different
> > sizes.
> 
> Yeah, me too. Never was there before though, so it isn't worse than the 
> old clock.
who's maintainer? /* dear, i'm getting really lazy... */
> 
> > 
> > this reminds me that porting the sensors-plugin won't be fun since i
> > could rely on exactly 5 well-defined panel sizes to adjust how many
> > items to put into one row - you can try adding about 4-6 values, it will
> > adjust according to the panel size, how many labels to display per
> > column.
> 
> You know the real size, you can use that to adjust the labels.
well, i did, but it was not as nice as before. though, it's even implemented better now ;-)
> 
> > 
> > where are the icon theme settings??? i got an ugly crystalsvg'ish theme
> > now :(
> 
> They have been in the user interface settings for a long time now. Only 
> 4.0 had separate icon themes.
hmm, yes, hmm, that was really nice.

> 
> > 
> > where is the default config consisting of menu, terminal, file manager,
> > browser, multimedia, printer and settings? (and panel, clock, ...)
> > 
> 
> As I said, the newpanel is a complete rewrite. A new default 
> configuration has to be made at some point before the release.
its my own config without menus, which pretty much ressembles the 4.2 default config and also comes with an iconbox. you may change as you want. 

> 
> > basically, it think that managing starters and their menus has become
> > much more complicated and unintuitive.
> 
> I don't believe that. It's one dialog for all items instead of one for 
> each. It's different, sure, but I don't believe it is more difficult.
let's see, what users will report, if they ever do...

> 
> > 
> > to sum up, the current trunk panel is the right way to building an
> > alternative gnome panel, 
> 
> What on earth do you mean by that?
just felt like some voice saying "hi! you log into 4.3.xy, which does now entirely complete with gnome."
so, just an impression that it's not the smart, fast, intuitive way to use as xfce4 used to be before.

> 
> > it is not the way to keep power-users 
> 
> I don't believe there's anything in the old panel that can't be done 
> with the new panel...
no, that's not the point. but it cannot do as much as the gnome panels. there are more applets for the gnome panel and so on. already two of my colleagues switched from xfce to gnome, on fedora core 2, laptop, and on debian testing on sparc.

> 
> > nor to
> > gain newly starting *nix users 'cause they will return to gnome/kde
> > where they came from as it makes a lot of things much easier.
> > it was especially the panel, lateron the session-manager which made me
> > use xfce. knowing how to configure gnome to look like my old
> > xfce4.0/4.2, this reason is no longer given.
> 
> Sorry, but I really don't understand how you reached this conclusion, 
> not from the things you mention above.
having switched to xfce 15 months ago, I experienced xfce to be really fast, very intuitive, consuming few memory. the now-a-day "i try all environments 'till i find the one" will expect more clearness, more intuitive user interfaces.
btw, windoze users woud like xfce to have the panel be adjustable by handels to all directions. even they expect the panel to have its position be determined only by where they drag the start/end of the panel, e.g. on an 800x600 display the left end to be on pixel 120, the right end on 600, so the width being 480. they also expect to change the width/thickness to be adjustable this way, like windows does approximately.

> 
> > 
> > what i really DO like is
> > - having one panel for taskbar, bottom panel (, iconbox?).
> 
> This is the only thing that really has to do with the new panel 
> framework, and I'm glad you like it ;-)
it also looks somehow nicer.

> 
> > - having those frames around systray - quite good for new users IMO
> > - and having the option to turn the frame off after having found it ;)
> > - panel stays at top when settings are up.
> > - the file-selection window does use the current path when opening
> 
> These are all just implementation issues, mostly with plugins, that can 
> be changed and improved at any time. That goes for most of the 
> complaints you have as well.
> 
> > 
> > best regards, fabian
> 
> Thanks for the comments. We need feed-back to make things work in the 
> best way possible.
> 
> 	Jasper

well, if you like, you can always ask for my opinion, but there are other opinions as well, so it might also help to -ask- tell ;) people to try and tell issues with the panel.

fabian
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