RC1 : session management still not there

[Benedikt Meurer]

purslow at sympatico.ca wrote:
>>about virtual desktops and the like,
>>simply because the XSM protocol doesn't include it.
>>Thats the job of the application and/or the window manager.
>>the session manager knows nothing about konsole or any other KDE app.
>>In fact it doesn't even know that its a KDE app.
>>If KDE apps don't work correctly w/ SM's other than ksmserver,
>>file a bug report on kde.org!
>>Konqueror is restarted indeed, but Konqueror doesn't display its window.
>>So the session manager does its job, but Konqueror fails.
> 
> what is the use of a session manager which doesn't restore one's session,
> ie the apps one was running on the desktops they were running on ?
> the KDE SM does an almost complete job at this (Mutt doesn't start)
> & IIRC there was an acceptable form of SM in Xfce 3.18.8 .

Xfce 3.x had no session manager; instead the window manager did some 
kind of X11R5 session management, which is also done by xfce4-session 
(as fallback for legacy apps).

> for whom do you believe the Xfce4 SM as currently implemented
> would be useful ?  using apps & Xfce in what ways ?

xfce4-session works very good (atleast better than ksmserver, 
gnome-session and xsm) for (nearly) all of us. The problem with KDE apps 
isn't limited to xfce4-session, but also occurs with xsm and 
gnome-session, which in turn means that the bug is with KDE, not with 
Xfce (unless you can prove that its a bug in all session manager except 
for ksmserver).

> i have a fairly typical & simple set of apps -- Kmahjongg, 2 Konsoles,
> Mutt on a Konsole, Lynx on Xterm, Konqueror, Gqview & Gkrellm2 -- ,
> which it is quicker & easier to restart by hand than by the RC1 SM.
> it's so bad it's not worth installing it.

Ok, lets just have a look at one simple example here: `Mutt on a 
Konsole'. Konsole connects to the session manager and sets several 
properties, so now xfce4-session knows of a running process `Konsole' 
that has set properties for restart etc. But xfce4-session does not know 
anything of whats running inside Konsole, he does not even know that 
something can run inside Konsole, because from the session managers POV, 
the Konsole process is just another process, just like any other app 
connected to the session manager. The application running inside Konsole 
must be managed by Konsole itself, that says, Konsole is responsible for 
restoring it and there's nothing a _standard compliant_ session manager 
could do about it. If Konsole requires hacks from the session manager to 
work properly, then its a bug in Konsole, not in the session manager.

If you don't think its worth to install xfce4-session, don't install 
xfce4-session, thats up to you. Nobody forces you to install 
xfce4-session. But if you discover bugs in KDE (or whatever) apps, 
report them to the KDE people instead of reporting them several times to 
xfce4-dev. They won't be fixed (and reporting them several times won't 
fix them either) simply because there's nothing to fix for us; Xfce 
works correct according to the XSM standard.

>>I told you several times, that its not the session manager's fault.
> 
> i don't remember once, certainly not about RC1 .

Check the archives. I remember atleast two times where you complained 
about xfce4-session and KDE.

>>You are basicly reporting KDE bugs here again and again
> 
> no, i'm not: i'm responding to the front page of the Xfce WWW site:
> 
>   We hope that you will give this release a try.
>   Please report any bugs or issues with this release
>   on the Xfce bug tracker or on the Xfce development list.
> 
> this has been the Xfce development list & this is an issue with RC1 .

This is an issue with KDE, not with Xfce. Your problems are known to me 
and as far as I can tell, these are bugs in KDE, not in Xfce; as I 
already mentioned, gnome-session and xsm show the same behaviour, so 
either all session managers are broken (which is a bit unlikely) or the 
respective KDE apps are broken. Unless you can prove that its not a KDE 
problem here, I don't consider this `a bug or an issue with Xfce' (as 
said, I cannot fix, simply because I don't have commit bits for the KDE 
repository nor have the time to track KDE bugs).

>>it gets boring and makes me angry.
> 
> if you get angry so easily about a discussion on a mailing-list,
> that's a totally different kind of problem, with which i cannot help you.

No, its not different in any way. I really appreciate your declared 
intention to help in testing Xfce; but it doesn't help us if you report 
the same problems (which you have already been told, that its impossible 
for us to fix) again and again (now, don't tell me you don't remember 
your "KDE vs. Xfce+KDE" benchmark, etc.).

If you don't get my point until now, try to see it this way: We are open 
source developers and we did all this (atleast most of it) in our spare 
time. We did it for fun. We did it because we love Xfce. We did it 
because we love to make people happy with Xfce, etc. So you are 
permitted to use Xfce for free because we made it open source. You are 
permitted to use it, love it, hate it, complain about it, etc... But you 
have to accept, that when you bug people for a long time, they will 
become angry with you and thats our permission, and thats not a totally 
different kind of problem. We aren't paid for answering your questions 
(atleast I've never received a payment from you), and therefore you 
don't have any right to tell us what to do and what not, and we are 100% 
right to become angry with you.

We _really_ want to fix bugs, and we _really_ want to finish stuff for 
the final release. And therefore its often disturbing to spend several 
hours answering mails, simply to explain a problem that doesn't exist or 
doesn't apply. I hope you get my point.

regards,
Benedikt

PS: I CC:'d xfce4-dev to make sure this thread is complete and we do not 
need to repeat this another time.