<div dir="auto">Andrzej,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Instead of complaining, implement it as an optional feature.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Lev</div><div dir="auto">.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 00:28 Andrzej <<a href="mailto:andrzejr@xfce.org">andrzejr@xfce.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Simon,</p>
<p>There was never a consensus regarding switching to CSD, and will
never be, because:</p>
<p>- Xfce is an X11 desktop and as such it has to work and look well
with other X11-compatible components. Removing or interfering with
the third-party WM's ability to handle window decorations makes
Xfce non-compliant X11 desktop. This is not a hypothetical issue.
Until recently even Xfwm4 didn't support CSD correctly and there
is no lack of WM's that will have problems with it because they
handle windows differently. Xfce as a small project strove for
being standard compliant, not pushing our way of doing things onto
others. Basically, for as long as we use X11 SSD is non-optional,
whether we like it or not.<br>
</p>
<p>- Community is split - some users strongly prefer CSD, many
others strongly prefer SSD. The latter part includes new users who
have switched to Xfce because of similar changes implemented in
other projects. If you find my email harsh, wait for them.<br>
</p>
<p>You've mentioned discussions and voting - the only thing I've
seen was a couple of posts pretty much announcing your decision,
where critical opinions (mine included) were swept under the
carpet because of "limited manpower". This is not how things work
- if you want a feature - you have to find manpower to implement
and maintain it. Controversial features are particularly tricky -
say there was a vote (was it?) and 30% (just an example) of people
voted against the feature. Are you really going to throw them
under the bus to provide eye candy to the remaining 70%?<br>
</p>
<p>To be clear - CSD is a valuable feature, even if mostly
concerning aesthetics, and many Xfce/Xfwm4 users will like it. I'm
against the current non-optional implementation, not having CSD at
all. Just add a user accessible option for opting in/out and be
done with that.<br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Andrzej<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 15/01/2020 17:45, Simon Steinbeiss
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi Andrzej,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>the switch to client side decorations was discussed and
voted on in the currently active core development team, put
publicly on the roadmap for 4.16 [0] and announced in a blog
post [1].</div>
<div>We didn't take this decision lightly and there was a lot of
discussion, but in the end we agreed on taking this step -
including not making this optional (in parts because of the
very limited manpower the project has at hand). I stand by
this common decision.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I appreciate your concern, I don't appreciate you
offering to revert my work on this agreed-upon roadmap item.
This is not in the collaborative spirit I learned when joining
the project and I hope you reconsider - especially as this is
not the result of an isolated design decision taken by an
individual.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Finally (and more technically speaking), the bigger chunk
of change is in libxfce4ui [2], not the panel. So even if you
were to revert those two tiny commits, it would not change the
overall usage of CSD in the panel's dialogs.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers</div>
<div>Simon</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[0] <a href="https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui</a>
and <a href="https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd</a></div>
<div>[1] <a href="https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/10/19/xfce-4-15-development-phase-starting/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/10/19/xfce-4-15-development-phase-starting/</a></div>
<div>[2] <a href="https://git.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/commit/?id=40743c4158f4f4d2357dd72326a915a969f20f94" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://git.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/commit/?id=40743c4158f4f4d2357dd72326a915a969f20f94</a>
(and the following commits)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:21:01 +0000<br>
From: Andrzej <<a href="mailto:andrzejr@xfce.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">andrzejr@xfce.org</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:xfce@xfce.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">xfce@xfce.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.15.1 released<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:96b2113b-36e6-cf5d-3588-6679cdbaf486@xfce.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">96b2113b-36e6-cf5d-3588-6679cdbaf486@xfce.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 14/01/2020 00:11, Simon Steinbeiss wrote:<br>
> - tic-tac-toe: Fix XfceTitledDialog with CSD<br>
> - add-item dialog: Fix XfceTitledDialog with CSD<br>
<br>
Please revert these changes or make them configurable in
UI and off by <br>
default. Or I will revert them myself.<br>
<br>
Andrzej<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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