<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div>I guess it's also critically important to make this distinction. We are going for scenario #2.<br></div><h3 class="sectionedit4" id="scenario_2full_csd_not_full_headerbar_selected_for_416" style="margin-top:1em;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:1em;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;font-weight:bold;font-style:normal;color:rgb(51, 51, 51);font-size:12.8px;font-family:"Bitstream Vera Sans", "Lucida Grande", "Lucida Sans Unicode", Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;">Scenario 2: Full CSD, not full HeaderBar (selected for 4.16)<br></h3><div class="level3" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:"Bitstream Vera Sans", "Lucida Grande", "Lucida Sans Unicode", Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;orphans:2;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;"><p>This means<br></p><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:3em;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;list-style-type:square;list-style-position:outside;"><li class="level1" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;"><div class="li">replacing XfceTitledDialog with a HeaderBar containing “[icon] [title|subtitle] [window controls]”<br></div></li><li class="level1" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;"><div class="li">re-designing those apps that seem like low-hanging fruit (Taskmanager?)<br></div></li><li class="level1" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;"><div class="li">using CSD only as simple window decorations for applications<br></div></li><li class="level1" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;"><div class="li">this ensures we can gradually make changes and get feedback along the way<br></div></li></ul><div><div class="li"><br></div><div class="li">This means that for nearly all Xfce components (save for those with the XfceTitledDialog (settings manager)) and the low-hanging fruit, we will be simply using the CSD titlebars. You can get a glimpse of this immediately by running any application with GTK_CSD=1.<br></div><div class="li"><br></div><div class="li">Here's Mousepad with the CSD window decorations. (GTK_CSD=1 mousepad)<br></div></div></div><div><a href="https://imgur.com/UvS35TZ.png">https://imgur.com/UvS35TZ.png</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Tue, Oct 22, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Sean Davis wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="qt"><div>Hi everyone,<br></div><div><br></div><div>We knew this would cause some stir, so not surprised to see this <br></div><div>conversation show up now. :-) I'm a long-time Xfce user and developer <br></div><div>and generally like CSD when implemented intelligently. I don't think <br></div><div>features should be stripped to make it work, and will strongly push back <br></div><div>against any recommendation that makes Xfce less useful. With that out of <br></div><div>the way...<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As for why GTK CSD are beneficial...<br></div><div><br></div><div>1. They are natively supported by the toolkit. Any GTK application can <br></div><div>take advantage of them, and more will over time. This part of the code <br></div><div>is maintained by GNOME and will be supported and less prone to breakage. <br></div><div>It also means scaling just works.<br></div><div><br></div><div>2. They extend window extents, making it possible to resize windows with <br></div><div>small borders much more easily. Xfwm doesn't support this, and I don't <br></div><div>know if there are any plans to make it do so. We're user-focused, but <br></div><div>we've been telling our users for years to pinch a 1px border or find a <br></div><div>different theme. And that sucks.<br></div><div><br></div><div>3. Consistency is *increased* since the decoration themes will always <br></div><div>follow the GTK theme. This also opens the door for scenario-based <br></div><div>theming, such as dark mode or dark applications (think Parole as an <br></div><div>overlay / picture-in-picture video player). I've honestly been holding <br></div><div>back on this feature because of the expected backlash.<br></div><div><br></div><div>4. Consistency is increased for GTK applications. The fact is, there are <br></div><div>already CSD-based GTK applications, and there are applications that have <br></div><div>a fallback appearance for Xfce, etc. This increases the effort for <br></div><div>developers that want to support newer DEs and Xfce, and we're honestly a <br></div><div>much smaller user group.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>As for some of the concerns...<br></div><div><br></div><div>1. Yes, *some* of our users are strongly against CSD layouts. This is <br></div><div>definitely known. At the same time, this is not *all* and probably not <br></div><div>even *most* of our users. In general, folks just want applications that <br></div><div>work and don't care about the window decorations.<br></div><div><br></div><div>2. Minimize / Maximize / Close. These buttons are controlled by the <br></div><div>window manager, and visible when enabled by the application. We solved <br></div><div>this problem years ago. Yes, the option to roll up into the titlebar is <br></div><div>gone, as the CSD titlebar doesn't implement this and headerbars have <br></div><div>nowhere to roll. Personally, I've only ever accidentally rolled my <br></div><div>windows up, then rolled them back down and disabled the setting.<br></div><div><br></div><div>3. When Xfwm does not use composition, CSDs have no shadows. They look <br></div><div>like this. https://imgur.com/z1shfbv.png<br></div><div><br></div><div>4. For Compton, this is a reported bug for this. The configuration patch <br></div><div>is here: <br></div><div>https://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/tree/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/compton.conf#n52<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Can we fix or improve on some CSD pain points? Certainly. However, if we <br></div><div>continue pushing back against them fundamentally, we're never going to <br></div><div>and nobody else is either. Instead of outright rejecting the client-side <br></div><div>decorations, let's figure out how to effectively utilize them or fix the <br></div><div>remaining issues around them.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's to more constructive communication :-)<br></div><div><br></div><div>Sean Davis (bluesabre)<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On 10/22/19 6:00 AM, xfce-request@xfce.org wrote:<br></div><div>> Send Xfce mailing list submissions to<br></div><div>> xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div>> https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce<br></div><div>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div>> xfce-request@xfce.org<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div>> xfce-owner@xfce.org<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div>> than "Re: Contents of Xfce digest..."<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Today's Topics:<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> 1. Why CSD? (jEsuSdA 8))<br></div><div>> 2. Re: Why CSD? (Andrzej)<br></div><div>> 3. Re: Why CSD? (Ralf Mardorf)<br></div><div>> 4. Is it possible to run something (e.g. a script) after a<br></div><div>> certain idle time? (Chris Green)<br></div><div>> 5. Re: Why CSD? (jEsuSdA 8))<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Message: 1<br></div><div>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 16:18:28 +0200<br></div><div>> From: "jEsuSdA 8)" <listas@jesusda.com><br></div><div>> To: xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>> Subject: Why CSD?<br></div><div>> Message-ID: <14e1bc05-7e20-2e04-2d79-1a880d7f60c6@jesusda.com><br></div><div>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Hi!<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I just read this piece of news:<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/10/19/xfce-4-15-development-phase-starting/<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Where we can read the new plans to add CSD to XFCE.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I also read https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> But I still no understanding the actual benefits of switching to CSD<br></div><div>> paradigm.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> What are the benefits of migrating to CSD?<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I ask this cause In my opinion, mixing normal and CSD is a pain. There<br></div><div>> is no way to have a uniform experience and appearance when using almost<br></div><div>> tall GTK themes but the awful Adwaita and window composition like<br></div><div>> Compiz, Compton, etc. and I had to make some tricks to avoid some CSD<br></div><div>> effects.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> In my opinion, HeaderBars are a non-sense. You only have a good desktop<br></div><div>> experience when you only use CSD+HeaderBars apps, which is impossible<br></div><div>> cause a normal user uses a lot of applications that does not follow<br></div><div>> these UI Guidelines. Also a normal user uses QT applications inside GTK<br></div><div>> environments. At least you have no plans to use HeaderBar, which is good<br></div><div>> news.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> In the screenshots we can see at<br></div><div>> https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd there are some<br></div><div>> cases we can see how the XFCE consistency breaks:<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd.png<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd-csd.png<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> - If you configures XFWM to not showing the icon in the window border,<br></div><div>> when using CSD the icon could appears in left-top corners.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> - The window title border size is not the same in CSD windows and<br></div><div>> Non-CSD ones.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> - You can minimize, roll, maximize and close the non-CSS windows, but<br></div><div>> you only can close the CSD ones.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> - What if the XFWM is configured to not using composition (so windows<br></div><div>> have no shadows) and CSD windows forces shadows?<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> - And, what if you are using a configuration of composition with shadows<br></div><div>> and CSD have shadows too? (I use compton and I have to tweak the CSS<br></div><div>> theme to avoid CSD shadows, cause, if not all the CSD windows have 2<br></div><div>> shadows)<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I’m a bit worried about the new CSD implementation. So, please, help us<br></div><div>> to understand why this is preferable.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Thanks a lot!<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> -------------- next part --------------<br></div><div>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div>> URL: <https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/attachments/20191021/d3c76e71/attachment-0001.html><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> ------------------------------<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Message: 2<br></div><div>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:51:45 +0100<br></div><div>> From: Andrzej <andrzejr@xfce.org><br></div><div>> To: xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>> Subject: Re: Why CSD?<br></div><div>> Message-ID: <ea68d21d-2285-76f3-7c9b-b741171694c5@xfce.org><br></div><div>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I would not like to see any part of Xfce rely, use or even endorse CSD.<br></div><div>> Please, just scrap these plans. Honestly, it's a bit of a shock, I<br></div><div>> though the consensus was we stand by our users.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Definitely Scenario 4 from me.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> If a third party application requests that - fine, display it without<br></div><div>> the title bar. But given the split in the community and strong opinions<br></div><div>> surrounding this topic, even that should be left to the user.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Thanks,<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Andrzej<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> On 21/10/2019 15:18, jEsuSdA 8) wrote:<br></div><div>>> Hi!<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> I just read this piece of news:<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/10/19/xfce-4-15-development-phase-starting/<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> Where we can read the new plans to add CSD to XFCE.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> I also read https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> But I still no understanding the actual benefits of switching to CSD<br></div><div>>> paradigm.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> What are the benefits of migrating to CSD?<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> I ask this cause In my opinion, mixing normal and CSD is a pain. There<br></div><div>>> is no way to have a uniform experience and appearance when using<br></div><div>>> almost tall GTK themes but the awful Adwaita and window composition<br></div><div>>> like Compiz, Compton, etc. and I had to make some tricks to avoid some<br></div><div>>> CSD effects.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> In my opinion, HeaderBars are a non-sense. You only have a good<br></div><div>>> desktop experience when you only use CSD+HeaderBars apps, which is<br></div><div>>> impossible cause a normal user uses a lot of applications that does<br></div><div>>> not follow these UI Guidelines. Also a normal user uses QT<br></div><div>>> applications inside GTK environments. At least you have no plans to<br></div><div>>> use HeaderBar, which is good news.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> In the screenshots we can see at<br></div><div>>> https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd there are<br></div><div>>> some cases we can see how the XFCE consistency breaks:<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd.png<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd-csd.png<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> - If you configures XFWM to not showing the icon in the window border,<br></div><div>>> when using CSD the icon could appears in left-top corners.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> - The window title border size is not the same in CSD windows and<br></div><div>>> Non-CSD ones.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> - You can minimize, roll, maximize and close the non-CSS windows, but<br></div><div>>> you only can close the CSD ones.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> - What if the XFWM is configured to not using composition (so windows<br></div><div>>> have no shadows) and CSD windows forces shadows?<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> - And, what if you are using a configuration of composition with<br></div><div>>> shadows and CSD have shadows too? (I use compton and I have to tweak<br></div><div>>> the CSS theme to avoid CSD shadows, cause, if not all the CSD windows<br></div><div>>> have 2 shadows)<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> I’m a bit worried about the new CSD implementation. So, please, help<br></div><div>>> us to understand why this is preferable.<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> Thanks a lot!<br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>><br></div><div>>> _______________________________________________<br></div><div>>> Xfce mailing list<br></div><div>>> Xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>>> https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce<br></div><div>>> http://www.xfce.org<br></div><div>> -------------- next part --------------<br></div><div>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div>> URL: <https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/attachments/20191021/12504b5e/attachment-0001.html><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> ------------------------------<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Message: 3<br></div><div>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:51:41 +0200<br></div><div>> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net><br></div><div>> To: xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>> Subject: Re: Why CSD?<br></div><div>> Message-ID: <20191021195141.7abe469b@archlinux><br></div><div>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Hi,<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I don't want to contribute to this discussion, since I've given up to<br></div><div>> debate controversial points with Linux communities. It's just a<br></div><div>> waste of time and at best good arguments lead to getting banned from<br></div><div>> communities. Unfortunately most of the times it also leads to<br></div><div>> aspersions and defamations. In short, good luck with this thread.<br></div><div>> However, https://github.com/ZaWertun/gtk3-nocsd might be interesting<br></div><div>> for one or the other user, since it allows to get back a little bit of<br></div><div>> theme consistency between CSD and non-CSD apps.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Available for Ubuntu > 16.04,<br></div><div>> https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=bionic&searchon=names&keywords=gtk3-nocsd<br></div><div>> and for Arch Linux by the AUR<br></div><div>> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/gtk3-nocsd-git/ other distros<br></div><div>> probably provide packages, too.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Regards,<br></div><div>> Ralf<br></div><div>><br></div><div>><br></div><div>> ------------------------------<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> Message: 4<br></div><div>> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:58:24 +0100<br></div><div>> From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net><br></div><div>> To: xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>> Subject: Is it possible to run something (e.g. a script) after a<br></div><div>> certain idle time?<br></div><div>> Message-ID: <20191021205824.GA30943@esprimo><br></div><div>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I have my system set up so that the Power Manager turns off the<br></div><div>> display after about 15 minutes idle. Is it possible to trigger<br></div><div>> running a script in the same way? I have some actions I'd like taken<br></div><div>> at the same time (or similar) to when the display turns off.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>> I'd guess it might be possible by getting xfce4-power-manager to send<br></div><div>> something on dbus which could then be monitored using dbus-monitor.<br></div><div>> However if there's a simpler method I'd be pleased to know.<br></div><div>><br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>Xfce mailing list<br></div><div>Xfce@xfce.org<br></div><div>https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce<br></div><div>http://www.xfce.org<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></body></html>