Xfce Digest, Vol 191, Issue 7

Tue Oct 22 13:34:14 CEST 2019

Hi everyone,

We knew this would cause some stir, so not surprised to see this 
conversation show up now. :-) I'm a long-time Xfce user and developer 
and generally like CSD when implemented intelligently. I don't think 
features should be stripped to make it work, and will strongly push back 
against any recommendation that makes Xfce less useful. With that out of 
the way...

As for why GTK CSD are beneficial...

1. They are natively supported by the toolkit. Any GTK application can 
take advantage of them, and more will over time. This part of the code 
is maintained by GNOME and will be supported and less prone to breakage. 
It also means scaling just works.

2. They extend window extents, making it possible to resize windows with 
small borders much more easily. Xfwm doesn't support this, and I don't 
know if there are any plans to make it do so. We're user-focused, but 
we've been telling our users for years to pinch a 1px border or find a 
different theme. And that sucks.

3. Consistency is *increased* since the decoration themes will always 
follow the GTK theme. This also opens the door for scenario-based 
theming, such as dark mode or dark applications (think Parole as an 
overlay / picture-in-picture video player). I've honestly been holding 
back on this feature because of the expected backlash.

4. Consistency is increased for GTK applications. The fact is, there are 
already CSD-based GTK applications, and there are applications that have 
a fallback appearance for Xfce, etc. This increases the effort for 
developers that want to support newer DEs and Xfce, and we're honestly a 
much smaller user group.

As for some of the concerns...

1. Yes, *some* of our users are strongly against CSD layouts. This is 
definitely known. At the same time, this is not *all* and probably not 
even *most* of our users. In general, folks just want applications that 
work and don't care about the window decorations.

2. Minimize / Maximize / Close. These buttons are controlled by the 
window manager, and visible when enabled by the application. We solved 
this problem years ago. Yes, the option to roll up into the titlebar is 
gone, as the CSD titlebar doesn't implement this and headerbars have 
nowhere to roll. Personally, I've only ever accidentally rolled my 
windows up, then rolled them back down and disabled the setting.

3. When Xfwm does not use composition, CSDs have no shadows. They look 
like this. https://imgur.com/z1shfbv.png

4. For Compton, this is a reported bug for this. The configuration patch 
is here: 
https://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/tree/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/compton.conf#n52

Can we fix or improve on some CSD pain points? Certainly. However, if we 
continue pushing back against them fundamentally, we're never going to 
and nobody else is either. Instead of outright rejecting the client-side 
decorations, let's figure out how to effectively utilize them or fix the 
remaining issues around them.

Here's to more constructive communication :-)

Sean Davis (bluesabre)

On 10/22/19 6:00 AM, xfce-request at xfce.org wrote:
> Send Xfce mailing list submissions to
> 	xfce at xfce.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	xfce-request at xfce.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	xfce-owner at xfce.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Xfce digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Why CSD? (jEsuSdA 8))
>     2. Re: Why CSD? (Andrzej)
>     3. Re: Why CSD? (Ralf Mardorf)
>     4. Is it possible to run something (e.g. a script) after a
>        certain idle time? (Chris Green)
>     5. Re: Why CSD? (jEsuSdA 8))
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 16:18:28 +0200
> From: "jEsuSdA 8)" <listas at jesusda.com>
> To: xfce at xfce.org
> Subject: Why CSD?
> Message-ID: <14e1bc05-7e20-2e04-2d79-1a880d7f60c6 at jesusda.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Hi!
>
>
> I just read this piece of news:
>
> https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/10/19/xfce-4-15-development-phase-starting/
>
>
> Where we can read the new plans to add CSD to XFCE.
>
> I also read https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd
>
>
> But I still no understanding the actual benefits of switching to CSD
> paradigm.
>
>
> What are the benefits of migrating to CSD?
>
> I ask this cause In my opinion, mixing normal and CSD is a pain. There
> is no way to have a uniform experience and appearance when using almost
> tall GTK themes but the awful Adwaita and window composition like
> Compiz, Compton, etc. and I had to make some tricks to avoid some CSD
> effects.
>
> In my opinion, HeaderBars are a non-sense. You only have a good desktop
> experience when you only use CSD+HeaderBars apps, which is impossible
> cause a normal user uses a lot of applications that does not follow
> these UI Guidelines. Also a normal user uses QT applications inside GTK
> environments. At least you have no plans to use HeaderBar, which is good
> news.
>
> In the screenshots we can see at
> https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd there are some
> cases we can see how the XFCE consistency breaks:
>
>
> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd.png
>
> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd-csd.png
>
> - If you configures XFWM to not showing the icon in the window border,
> when using CSD the icon could appears in left-top corners.
>
> - The window title border size is not the same in CSD windows and
> Non-CSD ones.
>
> - You can minimize, roll, maximize and close the non-CSS windows, but
> you only can close the CSD ones.
>
> - What if the XFWM is configured to not using composition (so windows
> have no shadows) and CSD windows forces shadows?
>
> - And, what if you are using a configuration of composition with shadows
> and CSD have shadows too? (I use compton and I have to tweak the CSS
> theme to avoid CSD shadows, cause, if not all the CSD windows have 2
> shadows)
>
>
> I’m a bit worried about the new CSD implementation. So, please, help us
> to understand why this is preferable.
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/attachments/20191021/d3c76e71/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:51:45 +0100
> From: Andrzej <andrzejr at xfce.org>
> To: xfce at xfce.org
> Subject: Re: Why CSD?
> Message-ID: <ea68d21d-2285-76f3-7c9b-b741171694c5 at xfce.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> I would not like to see any part of Xfce rely, use or even endorse CSD.
> Please, just scrap these plans. Honestly, it's a bit of a shock, I
> though the consensus was we stand by our users.
>
> Definitely Scenario 4 from me.
>
> If a third party application requests that - fine, display it without
> the title bar. But given the split in the community and strong opinions
> surrounding this topic, even that should be left to the user.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrzej
>
> On 21/10/2019 15:18, jEsuSdA 8) wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>>
>> I just read this piece of news:
>>
>> https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/10/19/xfce-4-15-development-phase-starting/
>>
>>
>> Where we can read the new plans to add CSD to XFCE.
>>
>> I also read https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd
>>
>>
>> But I still no understanding the actual benefits of switching to CSD
>> paradigm.
>>
>>
>> What are the benefits of migrating to CSD?
>>
>> I ask this cause In my opinion, mixing normal and CSD is a pain. There
>> is no way to have a uniform experience and appearance when using
>> almost tall GTK themes but the awful Adwaita and window composition
>> like Compiz, Compton, etc. and I had to make some tricks to avoid some
>> CSD effects.
>>
>> In my opinion, HeaderBars are a non-sense. You only have a good
>> desktop experience when you only use CSD+HeaderBars apps, which is
>> impossible cause a normal user uses a lot of applications that does
>> not follow these UI Guidelines. Also a normal user uses QT
>> applications inside GTK environments. At least you have no plans to
>> use HeaderBar, which is good news.
>>
>> In the screenshots we can see at
>> https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/csd there are
>> some cases we can see how the XFCE consistency breaks:
>>
>>
>> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd.png
>>
>> https://wiki.xfce.org/_media/releng/4.16/roadmap/general_ui/notifyd-csd.png
>>
>> - If you configures XFWM to not showing the icon in the window border,
>> when using CSD the icon could appears in left-top corners.
>>
>> - The window title border size is not the same in CSD windows and
>> Non-CSD ones.
>>
>> - You can minimize, roll, maximize and close the non-CSS windows, but
>> you only can close the CSD ones.
>>
>> - What if the XFWM is configured to not using composition (so windows
>> have no shadows) and CSD windows forces shadows?
>>
>> - And, what if you are using a configuration of composition with
>> shadows and CSD have shadows too? (I use compton and I have to tweak
>> the CSS theme to avoid CSD shadows, cause, if not all the CSD windows
>> have 2 shadows)
>>
>>
>> I’m a bit worried about the new CSD implementation. So, please, help
>> us to understand why this is preferable.
>>
>> Thanks a lot!
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Xfce mailing list
>> Xfce at xfce.org
>> https://mail.xfce.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
>> http://www.xfce.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/attachments/20191021/12504b5e/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:51:41 +0200
> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
> To: xfce at xfce.org
> Subject: Re: Why CSD?
> Message-ID: <20191021195141.7abe469b at archlinux>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi,
>
> I don't want to contribute to this discussion, since I've given up to
> debate controversial points with Linux communities. It's just a
> waste of time and at best good arguments lead to getting banned from
> communities. Unfortunately most of the times it also leads to
> aspersions and defamations. In short, good luck with this thread.
> However, https://github.com/ZaWertun/gtk3-nocsd might be interesting
> for one or the other user, since it allows to get back a little bit of
> theme consistency between CSD and non-CSD apps.
>
> Available for Ubuntu > 16.04,
> https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=bionic&searchon=names&keywords=gtk3-nocsd
> and for Arch Linux by the AUR
> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/gtk3-nocsd-git/ other distros
> probably provide packages, too.
>
> Regards,
> Ralf
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:58:24 +0100
> From: Chris Green <cl at isbd.net>
> To: xfce at xfce.org
> Subject: Is it possible to run something (e.g. a script) after a
> 	certain idle time?
> Message-ID: <20191021205824.GA30943 at esprimo>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I have my system set up so that the Power Manager turns off the
> display after about 15 minutes idle.  Is it possible to trigger
> running a script in the same way?  I have some actions I'd like taken
> at the same time (or similar) to when the display turns off.
>
> I'd guess it might be possible by getting xfce4-power-manager to send
> something on dbus which could then be monitored using dbus-monitor.
> However if there's a simpler method I'd be pleased to know.
>