[Xfce-i18n] About German translations

[Jannis Pohlmann]

Hey,

Am Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:29:16 +0200
schrieb Fabian Nowak <timystery at arcor.de>:

> > Take two dialogs like 'Appearance Settings' and 'Accessibility
> > Settings'. If one is translated as 'Erscheinungsbild' and the other
> > is translated as 'Barrierefreiheitseinstellungen für Xfce 4' this
> > not consistent. Personally, I'd prefer to use generic names.
> > 'Xfce4', 'Xfce' and 'Xfce 4' doesn't have to appear everywhere. 
> 
> Totally agree. Was somehow on my TODO list as well. Though, we should
> try to make it suit the menu where they are listed as well as the
> settings dialog. I think this is where the dilemma arises from.

Yeah. I was planning to talk to the other devs about this. I guess it 
makes sense to use generic names in the desktop files as well since 
most of them are only visible in Xfce anyway.

> >  
> > > > 	     - If a group of labels ends with ":" in English,
> > > > don't drop the ":" in some of their German translations but not
> > > > in others.
> > > 
> > > 	Ah yes, when there are 20 strings marked fuzzy and you
> > > repair one by one, some msgstrings might stay unchanged with the
> > > colon left or removed -- part of the revisioning process.
> > 
> > Ideally you'd translate, then install the translations and see how
> > they look in the actual UI. If you do that, you'll notice the
> > differences.
> 
> Sure, and you note roughly 80 to 99 percent of the changes and
> mistakes, and you don't see everyone, you will also not see every
> string simply because you're human.

Yeah, I know. Sorry - I told you that mail was a bit of a rant, 
didn't I? ;)

> > 
> > > > 
> > > >   b) - "Enable" does not mean "einstellen". It means
> > > > "aktivieren", "einschalten", "verwenden", "benutzen" or
> > > > whatever depending on the context it is used in. 
> > > 
> > > Uuh, you can't say that in general. The thing is that sometimes
> > > the devs themselves just use *some* string; and the translators
> > > have to fix it by choosing the correct words, not the direct
> > > translation. Of course, you might still be right; please point to
> > > the exact translation then.
> > 
> > It's right, a lot of our English strings could use some
> > improvements. But "einstellen" is neutral (it doesn't say whether
> > something is going to be activated or deactivated) whereas "enable"
> > clearly is the opposite of "disable" and thus explains what it does.
> 
> Ah, I see what you mean. Of course, it's not used in the sense of
> "configure", but "anstellen, einstellen, aktivieren". Though, I do
> personally like "einstellen" way more than the others, but I agree on
> the confusing effect for users, so better not use "einstellen" there.

I forgot there also is "ausstellen". But still, "einstellen" is
ambiguous in that it often only means that there is something to
configure. Yep.

> > > >      - "Button" is not "Knopf" - it's "Schaltfläche"! 
> > > 
> > > Button is "Knopf". See your given URL, way more translations for
> > > "Knopf". Thus, I asked a MAC user how she would translate it. Her
> > > first reply was "Knopf". Asked about what to expect from
> > > "Schaltfläche", she answered "a wide button", meaning like a
> > > toggle button. She later admitted, that Apple might have chosen
> > > "Schaltfläche" everywhere, but asked on how to label the OK
> > > buttons on the small information dialogs etc, she answered
> > > "Knopf" again. So it depends on the context; but in general,
> > > "Knopf" is correct, "Schaltfläche" is something different.
> > > (Actually, one part of my in-depth examinations at university was
> > > usability in real-time systems such as big terminals etc.:
> > > Human-Machine Interfaces in Production Environments)
> > 
> > (That doesn't impress me too much. My minor subject at the
> > University is all about user interfaces and usability as well.)
> > 
> > Personally, I strongly prefer "Schaltfläche". But I agree that you
> > can argue about that. If you check
> > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaltfl%C3%A4che or
> > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafische_Benutzeroberfl%C3%A4che
> > you'll not find "Knopf" anywhere. To me it sounds just wrong.
> 
> C'mon on, you are not going to reference Wikipedia at all, are you?

This is no scientific discussion, is it? Wikipedia suits as well as any
other non-scientific website if we are to argue about which word is more
commonly used for 'button'. And actually, I didn't want to prove
anything with that Wikipedia link - my point is that there seems to be
no consensus on this. At the end it comes down to personal taste I
guess.
 
> > > 
> > > >      - "Tastendrücke" and "Mausklicks" are two completely
> > > > different things. Don't confuse them.
> > > 
> > > Sure, just recently tried to differentiate on them; so please
> > > report directly the context or lines where you find it confused.
> > 
> > In the case of xfce4-settings, I've already committed updated
> > translations for all the things mentioned here. See 
> > 
> >   http://svn.xfce.org/index.cgi/xfce/revision/?rev=28302
> > 
> > for what I changed.
> 
> This is what I don't like too much; actually there's Maximilian to
> commit our changes. Or there should be a real coordiantor for the
> German translation process again (I do *not* volunteer on doing that,
> I like translating some modules; not managing the team).

I know that Maximilian handles translation updates. But I don't see why
I should waste his time with my translations if he is going to commit
them anyway. (It's not that he checks if all translations are correct
before comitting them.)

> > > - I had used "Verwaltung" as often as possible for 4.4, though
> > > people tended to use manager like a sports manager everywhere,
> > > which simply is wrong; we are not playing football or rugby.
> > > Instead, "Verwaltung" is way better for most applications except
> > > for the "file manager" as Windows made "Dateimanager" popular. We
> > > still should revert "Window manager" to "Fensterverwaltung" as is
> > > also proposed by the translation suggester.
> > 
> > "Fenstermanager" seems to be used a lot in GNOME and KDE (more than
> > "Fensterverwaltung") and I think that's good. "Verwaltung" sounds
> > passive whereas "Manager" sounds like an object that actually does
> > something.
> 
> Once again, neither Gnome nor KDE are reference, especially if you
> look at how the translated "window manager" - they also included
> Deppenleerzeichen and made other mistakes as well. Once again, even
> Microsoft wasn't able to differentiate passee composee from the
> infinitive; but no French translation team should argue on that.

Even if we don't take GNOME or KDE as a reference, I still prefer
"Fenstermanager". On the wiki page I read that someone (you?)
complained about "Manager" not being German. I don't know where that
story about the woman who doesn't understand what a "Manager" does comes
from, but I disagree. It might not be ultra-German but it's been part of
our language for years if not decades. And as opposed to "Verwaltung"
it doesn't sound so bureaucratic at least ;)

> > > 
> > > - the exaggeration of Deppenleerzeichen: due to unknowingness of
> > > language and unwillingness of package designers and creators of
> > > advertisements to stop that "Compayname Product<DLZ>name" scheme,
> > > German language is now regarded correct when using "Xfce
> > > Einstellungen". Of course, "Fenstermanager Einstellungen" is still
> > > incorrect and at least companies are beginning to revert these
> > > faults -- have a look at Maggi and Knorr instant meal things and
> > > the older and newer packages: you can see them chaning back to
> > > separating with a dash or concatenating the words again properly.
> > > We should see/think again where we can remove the
> > > Deppenbindestriche and improve readability and usability without
> > > breaking (common) German language.
> > 
> > You can avoid things like "Xfce Einstellungen" (which I think is
> > wrong because it should be "Xfce-Einstellungen" and that still
> > sucks) by using generic names like "Einstellungen". You can also
> > avoid things like "Fenstermanagereinstellungen" by just using
> > "Fenstermanager". 
> 
> So, let's enhance these translations as much as possible, if noone
> argues against.

ACK. I've had some hard times to find the right item in the
settings menu during the past months. With the 'einstellungen' suffix
labels just become too long.

  - Jannis
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